This is an edited excerpt of my conversation with Ana Andjelic for the Back Row podcast. You can watch or listen to part one of this episode for free on  YouTube,  Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. Part two is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts for paid subscribers.

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In 1994, Claudia Schiffer, Naomi Campbell, and Elle Macpherson banded together to open Fashion Café.

Today, starting a brand or co-founding a restaurant is a pretty routine part of being famous. Back then, it was much less common. This restaurant was particularly odd, in part because it resembled a cheesy Hard Rock instead of the upscale restaurants by brands like Louis Vuitton and Tiffany that book up months in advance today.

With a facade that gave “french fries in a plastic basket,” this wasn’t the kind of business people associated with, well, models. It failed spectacularly. Matt Haig wrote in his 2011 book Brand Failures that “‘fashion’ was not a theme that made people feel hungry.”

Today, stars ranging from Mark Wahlberg to Bad Bunny have restaurants. Too many have skincare brands to count. And celebrities are selling everything from roll-on perfume (Drake) to dog food (Paris Hilton).

To analyze some of the most discussed celebrity brands — including Goop, Rhode, The Row, As Ever, and more — I asked Ana Andjelic to come on the podcast and explain why they work (or don’t). Ana holds a PhD in sociology, has previously served as the chief brand officer of Banana Republic and Esprit, and writes The Sociology of Business newsletter. Ahead, an edited excerpt of our conversation. (Note that we made a conscious decision to avoid talking about the Kardashian-Jenners, because you all hear so much about them everywhere else.)

Let’s start with a topic near and dear to my heart: Goop. Gwyneth has been everywhere promoting Marty Supreme, and sources have told me that she believes this will help her promote Goop. She has been wearing her clothing line Gwyn, which she recently rebranded from G. Label, for her promotional appearances. Does this help Goop and Gwyn?

I think that even G. Label was really worn by hardcore enthusiasts of Goop. Brands have their life cycle. You always look, where are you in the life cycle? Brooks Brothers is at the end of their life cycle. Those iconic brands, you can kind of revive [them], but when a brand is at the end of their life, you mostly work around their IP.

The height of DTC was between 2010 and 2020. It was easy to raise money, to say we don't need stores — we're going to have amazing branding, we’re going to spend money on performance marketing. You need a celebrity — let's go. That was the wave that G. Label, along with all the other DTC clothing lines, were riding. When you do the same thing again by renaming it, the question is what are you really doing?

I feel confused. They wiped the G. Label Instagram and put up GWYN across the grid, like different pieces of the letters in different squares.

I understand your confusion, but when luxury brands have a new creative director, they wipe the whole thing. So I think that the idea is it's a completely new brand identity — and then you see the clothes that look exactly the same.

The challenge here is two[fold]. First — that's quite luxury. Right now, we are in a maximalist stage. She may want to play in The Row territory, which is timelessness. The second thing is it's not distinguishable. When she's wearing it, it's hard to say she's wearing Gwyn. When you see Gucci [on red carpets], you know it's Gucci. The same is true for Versace, Saint Laurent, Armani.

I think no matter what she does, she’s going to get interest and press. But if you didn't tell me that she was wearing Gwyn, I wouldn't have known. And I don't think I'm alone in that.

Goop built its early reputation on so many wellness practices doctors criticized — jade eggs, raw milk, “detoxing.” These controversies have stuck to Gwyneth for years — commenters were calling her a snake oil salesmen in Amy Poehler’s Instagram posts promoting their podcast episode. From a branding perspective, does this hurt her?

I think people made up their mind about her long time ago. You’re not going to be like, I really am into everything she's selling, but this she went too far. You’re either all in on drinking non-pasteurized milk or you’re completely out. So I think that in that sense, she’s fine because, hate clicks are clicks and love clicks are clicks.

The problem is when you're in the middle — no one cares. I think she did insanely well with that. She instinctively understands that it is so much better to be controversial than to be Jennifer Aniston.

There’s the old saying that all press is good press. Do you believe that?

I think eventually that becomes true. I think that Paris Hilton benefited from her sex tape. That was a scandal, and there was a lot of shaming around that, and she spun that into a very successful career.

Speaking of wellness, let’s move on to Call Her Daddy host Alex Cooper’s brand, Unwell, which is about a year old and sort of a more modern idea of “wellness.” It’s “functional water.”

It’s at the beginning of its life cycle. Whereas Goop is like a horse about to go to the glue factory.

She spun it out of the most modern media form, which is podcasts. It’s water, which is one of the most basic categories. Why wouldn’t she tap into something that is easy to sell? Why bother with clothes, with beauty — just brand water.

The site says, “We know you know what water is. Ours is filtered through reverse osmosis to remove unwanted elements.” I'm sure that's nonsense, but okay — different flavors say they have protein, low sugar, low calorie. Are you bullish on this brand?

Monthly retail sales are over $2 million. Definitely, at least for the next few years, because then the new Alex Cooper is going to come in.

We have to talk about Hailey Bieber. She had a great exit — Rhode was acquired by e.l.f. Cosmetics in a deal valued at a billion dollars. Everyone wanted to analyze why that happened for this brand. What’s the secret sauce?

She had great focus. Her entire thing is how do you have that glazed skin? When you think Hailey Bieber beauty, you think about that glazed skin. In business, you want to do one thing well. She launched with very few products. Her execution was amazing. Her marketing is amazing. Her brand image is amazing — very fresh, very modern.

What about Shay Mitchell’s line Rini, which promoted toddler face masks late last year. The outrage came on quick. Is that an example of controversy being good for business because it gets you impressions and it gets you in the discourse? Or can it sometimes be bad?

It's the insight — which is probably right — that mothers and daughters want to do things together. The beauty industry is such a beast. Any indication that they can go towards kids, they're going to take it. From a business perspective, incredibly smart. From humanity perspective, no comment.

But then you have someone like Meghan Markle, the subject of constant headlines, constant scrutiny. Why doesn’t that kind of attention translate into a strong brand? Her Netflix show hasn’t been renewed as far as we know, but she’s still selling As Ever foodstuffs. She and Harry are adapting the book The Wedding Date for Netflix.

Let’s talk about this as a business, not as a person because neither of us know this person. Businesses are hard. This business execution is horrific.